Irony.
Irony is thinking back to Saturday, to the big row with your girlfriend. Irony is mentally going back over the events of the day, trying to analyse your behaviour and what she told you. Irony is trying to isolate what behaviour it is that leads to these bouts. Irony is trying to stop thinking of things that you could ask her to do differently, and trying to establish what you can do differently.
Irony is remembering back, plucking out the constructive from the unconstructive, seeking for the lessons she may have imparted upon you.
Irony is recalling the one point made more than any other.
Irony is hearing that phrase over and over again, repeated as 'though stuck in a loop.
And above all? Above all, irony is remembering that "you just don't listen!"
That's the bit that made me chuckle. I used to find writing to be somewhat therapeutic, and it could help me to work things through in my head. So, I write this as much for me, as I do for you. This is the bit which, I hope, may help me to process this information in a useful manner.
This, I believe, seems to be Quna's single biggest consistent complaint against me.
And, and I'm letting you in on a secret here... I don't understand why.
You see, this is (what I perceive as) a common weakness in many men. I know people like this. They don't listen to their other halves because they don't care about what they're saying. This is something I decided, many many years ago, to try to do differently (along with always putting the toilet seat & lid down).
I do care. And because I do care, I try very hard to listen.
So I am actually quite upset to keep being told this (and have told Quna this many times). But it leaves me not actually understanding what this problem is, nor what to do about it.
I wonder if it's actually a small wodge of things together that get lumped under this generic heading of "not listening":
- Genuinely not remembering something (E.g. I talked before about The Christmas Run-Around for a bottle of champagne - Christmas Eve morning I went to Quna with a pen and paper and asked her for the name of the champagne. "You see! This is what I mean when I say you don't listen!" - I can tell you why she wanted champagne, I can tell you why it's special to her on Christmas and how this tradition started. I had never bought champagne before in my life and simply couldn't remember the name from the day before)
- Mis-understanding something. After all, we all make mistakes sometimes.
- Having listened and understood what she has said, the ultimate crime - disagreeing. This goes along with other top problems I have - "you always have to have your own way" and "you always disregard my opinions". Again, I find I struggle somewhat with this one, as I do try to be open, to discuss things, and to find a compromise. Of course, the fact that I try to discuss these things comes back to "having my own way", as Quna would sometimes prefer not to discuss what-ever it is at all, thank you very much, and my desire to discuss it is an example of my disregarding her opinions.
Hmmm.
New relationships are just a minefield of fun, eh? ;)
My way of attempting to deal with an angry Quna who is shouting at me for some reason is still evolving. In the beginning when she began to question some of the qualities I hold dearest to myself it was just plain distressing and could sometimes reduce me to tears ("stop being whiney!"). As I try to establish how best to respond to defuse these situations, I find I am fast running out of options. I have tried to remain calm, to talk gently ("that just makes me feel more stressed!"). At the moment, I seem to be in a phase of responding to her in a fairly similar manner (it's been a lot of years since I've really shouted at someone), and try making the random digs to her as she does to me ("stop trying to score points!") (although I have tried to avoid the name-calling and the impressions).
I fear that at some point, the ultimate solution to these problems, the ultimate cure to arguments, and the ultimate irony, may finally, unwittingly, unknowingly arrive.
To simply stop listening.
Monday, January 14, 2008
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Irony?
ReplyDeleteIrony?
Hmmm, I prefer Baldrick's definition, in answer to Blackadder's question "Do you know what irony is?"
Baldrick's reply:
"Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron."
It probably makes more sense too.
Take care, and hang on in there.
Zeb.
[grin]
ReplyDeleteI was considering a follow-up post called "Goldy" ;)
(Although I think I then put all of the follow-up into the original :) )
Next time she says "You don't listen", how about replying "Pardon?"
ReplyDeleteZeb.
My wife used to complain about this a lot, so nowadays I just switch off and filter it out...(this has the added advantage that whenever she subsequently brings up my non-listening, I can then agree with everything she says with complete and total honesty).
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure it would be a very good idea to emulate my example!
Zeb: Hmm? ;)
ReplyDeleteCogidubnus, you're an interesting guy, and I like your honesty. :)
I can understand how you can arrive at that sort of point, and I am glad that I fear it.
The bizarre thing is, I actually like communication (and this was reinforced within me last year at the Relate counselling) so that people know where they stand and what's going on.
Quna does not like to talk about the things which are (to my mind - and that's the problem) those most important to talk about.
When she went home on Saturday, it was following her expression of desire that she wished that she had left on Christmas Eve (she had packed her things, while I begged her to stay - I was certain she would enjoy Christmas - she relented, and did enjoy Christmas), that she had had enough of this, and was leaving me.
(This was in town, following a long day of 'tense' feelings,and finishing on an argument about sausages)
On the walk home, she did at that the only reason she did stay with me was "hope".
Upon arriving home (mine), she said she just wanted to go home ad get some space. I tried to talk to her while she packed her things up (whilst staying out of her way), suggesting that I could give her some space without her leaving, to just sit down together for 30minutes, or even a simple hug, but she refused.
I helped her carry some things down to the car. I knew she had to come back Tuesday as she is working over here - I said she could hang on to my spare set of keys, and that she was always welcome.
She said "see you Tuesday."
She sent a txt asking for some space when she made it home. I obliged, other than to wish her luck with something via txt on Monday afternoon.
Monday evening I get a txt asking if I can manage "light" conversation to walk her home as its dark. I oblige.
Tuesday evening she arrives earlier than she originall expected. I'm preparing tea when she arrives, and she has a soak in the bath while I cook. She snuggles up to me while we watch TV.
I've gone since Saturday not actually knowing whether she really "wanted" to come back or not, and all I really want to do now is find out what the state of things actually is. I managed to resist asking last night, but in the end, this is probably an example of me "always wanting to do things my way".
*sigh*
She's right, in the end - I don't know why you *wouldn't* want to talk about things like this, so shall end up trampling over her desire to not talk about it.
I do listen to her. I know she won't want to talk about this.
But I also know that every time I make a decision like this, when I "disregard her opinion" and "have to get my own way" because I "don't listen" that I'm aware of all of that. That I'm not doing what she wants... Despite the fact I actually would like to be able to. And that hurts me every time.
She thinks I enjoy it.
That hurts too.
For someone who says you always want to do things your way, she certainly, from what you say, seems to actually want to always do things her way. And to keep you guessing.
ReplyDeleteI can totally appreciate and relate to your desire to want to know where you stand, and not to have to just take things are they happen to be on a rather ad hoc basis. That may suit a relationship that is rather casual, but IMO not one that is committed and hopefully moving on somewhere.
Hope you can work this out for the best for both of you.
Zeb.
PS If you don't want to say "Pardon", you could always sit there with your fingers in your ears singing "la la la la". ;o)
Errm ...I was, in fact, being ironic!
ReplyDeleteoh dear! I can sympathise with both you and Quna as I used to have this problem with the OH when we first met.
ReplyDeleteI'd tell him stuff and then he'd forget or ask me again or do something different to what we discussed. So much so I often wondered if he had actually been with me when I'd said it/we discussed it.
I've come to the conclusion that things fall into 2 categories:
Things he interprets differently to me eg 'can you put the washer on when you get home' to him means he can do it whenever he wants and not as soon as he gets home so he plays world of warcraft for 6 hours and the washing doesn't get done.
If it's something he's not that bothered about, he listens, then shelves it and it's quickly forgotten. eg 'Please Sky+ Coronation street for me as i'll be late home'..never gets done...
As a result I've had to improve my communication to be clear and precise and accept that sometimes he's a bit forgetful and it's not the end of the world - I'm just used to having an inner herimone whereas he hasn't got one. And even if I don't discussing some things, he likes to get things out in the open and resolve it, so I have to make the effort.
He's had to grow to like Coronation Street and on some issues we talk it over then agree to disagree....
You'll get there - it just takes a while - it's been almost 8 years and the OH and I are still talking at cross purposes sometimes!
I'm sure that there are two sides to this. I think that hearing what she has to say would be interesting. However I don't think a public space such as your blog is the best place to do it.
ReplyDeleteSeems like you need to talk calmly and rationally. I'm not saying that one person is at fault, but if what you have quoted is accurate and that's how she percieves you then maybe the question is "why?". What do you do in arguments that makes her see that person.
She sounds like a monster to me. If she's that bad, why are you with her?
Because I love her.
ReplyDeleteHence the reason I'm trying to understand what it is that I do wrong.
This has reminded me of a relationship I had when I was just 17. Not very wisely, it was with a guy of 27. His biggest accusation against me was "Why do you always insist that we talk about things? Why do you always have to analyse things?" As an impressionable and vulnerable teen, I caved in and stopped talking about deep things and stuck to the superficial. I realised after a while though that the reason I wanted to do those things was because that was how I was, and actually it was a good thing, because analysing and talking about things produced constructive solutions to things. Then I realised he wasn't interested in those.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if this is at all relevant to your situation, but just thought I'd share anyway. I found much more happiness with someone who loved my analytical tendencies and appreciated my wanting to talk things out.
Zeb.
Hey Mate, you can blog about anything you like, it's ur blog. Express away. This is were we have our freedom to express as we thoughts and feelings.
ReplyDeleteAND there is nothing wrong with holding ur fingers in ur ears and saying "la la la la...etc" Very theraputic I find. ;) Ha
Since blogging here has been a productive and therapeutic way for you to work through and resolve your feelings over the last couple of years, I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to say that this isn't the place to do it. You've already tried to resolve it directly with Quna, and since that didn't work, I can totally understand you wanting to talk about it here - it's a tried and tested formula for you.
ReplyDeletePlease don't try to change yourself for anyone - you're fine just as you are.
Zeb.
btw, forgot to say: Cogi: Oh. Erm. *cough* I knew that. *cough* Uhh, clearly I had other things on my mind. Oops. Sorry :)
ReplyDeleteNM: Thanks... I feel I could have more to say, but I'll lull it over :)
Zeb: Much like NM said, I appreciate that different people handle things like this differently. We all have our reasons. Sometimes it is just finding a balancing act.
Anon: Lalalalalala. ;)
Zeb again: I'm not sure. It's a bit of a case of six-of-one, half-dozen of the other, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I did, unfortunately, lose my focus with this post. A part of who I am is that I do have a desire to change.
I do think that I have a problem here somewhere that, when Quna is angry about something, exacerbates the situation. It is all too easy to blame this on someone else, which is why I want to try to analyse my own behaviour here.
Phew.
Well, the thing is you can't change who you are, only the way you behave. And changing negative behaviour has to be a good thing - but from what you say I can't see that you're behaving negatively, just in a way that doesn't seem to suit Quna at the time.
ReplyDeleteIf your goal is to keep pleasing her by behaving how she wants and when she wants, I guess all you can do is at any given time ask her how she wants you to react.If you think she won't like that either in the heat of the moment, then maybe you can talk to her when she is feeling ok and ask her then how she wants you to react next time. If she just wants you to instinctively know, you might be in trouble, but it's worth a try.
I've been married 25 years. The thing we sometimes argue about is when I have issues and want to talk - and instead of just listening and supporting, he wants to solve my issues for me. I understand that that is because he loves me - but I have to take a breath and say to him "I don't want you to solve the problem, I just want you to listen and show you love me". Reacting the way he does is not something he does wrong, it's just part of how he is, and sometimes, in a crisis, that is exactly what is needed. And I would not want to crush that in him by making him feel bad about it.
He sometimes remembers and sometimes he doesn't. ;o) But that's just him. It doesn't mean he loves me any less that he isn't able to come through for me every time. It just means we're different.
By all means work on yourself if you think you need it, but please don't let Quna off the hook. She is not helping you (or herself) by the way she argues (if she does indeed argue the way you say, ie if the words you put in quotes are actual quotes).
For example, sentences that begin with "you always ......." and "you never .... " are not helpful. "Always" makes it feel like the person has written you off, and it can seem very hurtful and final. It also puts 100% blame on the other person, rather than accepting their own half of it all.
Better to say "When you ..... I feel like ..... " which is more constructive because it's not laying blame, and is helping the other person to understand what is going on in the other person's head.
Telling you to to "stop" a certain thing is also not helpful (as is issuing other commands), as it is basically assuming a parental role over a child, rather than dealing with you as an equal adult. It's basically trying to place a demand on you to do what she wants, and trying to intimidate you into doing what she wants.
So whereas I can appreciate you wanting to explore changes you can make in your own behaviour, it has to be a two-way thing, otherwise you could end up losing yourself.
One more thing (sorry to have gone on and on!), I just want to make something clear here: no-one can MAKE someone else feel something. That person chooses what emotions they feel, no-one else MAKES them feel it. You may feel that what you do sometimes exacerbates Quna's anger, but actually she is choosing to let it be exacerbated. It's not your fault. She needs to take responsibility for herself and deal with her own emotions, rather than trying to blame you. She is an adult, and is responsible for herself, you are not responsible for her. She could just as easily say "sorry, I'm not in a good place right now, could we talk about this later" or "sorry, this isn't your fault, can we just take a walk/have a cuddle and not talk" or "sorry, could we not do this right now - I need some space".
I am sure I have said enough.
Take care. And please, whatever you do, don't lose yourself in any of this; you're one of the good guys.
Zeb.
You know, I'm sometimes concerned when posting comments on other peoples' blogs that I seem to have written an essay...
ReplyDeleteAt least now I know I'm not the only one to do that ;)
Thank you for all you've said.
The quotes are technically accurate, although they are out of context. Often said during an argument, I think we can all (myself included) be guilty of exagerating or saying things we don't quite mean, so it is probably harsh for me to have removed them from that context, but then, I was feeling down, hurt, and confused at the time of writing.
Certainly, I can recognise a similarity between your husband and myself in what you've said with regards to wanting to solve problems.
I have started to try to work on letting this go, as I can recognise it's often counter-productive, but it's very difficult to do so.
Just so that you get my side.
ReplyDeleteThere are times I don't want to discuss things with IM, for the very simple reason that a couple of years ago I suffered with depression. As a result I need to talk about things that bother me when I'M ready not when someone forces me to - forcing me actually makes me quite ill for some days later. I realise that my mental health is of little concern to you concerned folks but it matters to me.
I'd also like to point out that the Monday following the weekend of the weekend of the "argument", I was going to see someone about these issues. A professional, not someone faceless individual whose never met me let alone spoken to me. Try and imagine how stressful that was.
I ralise that you care about IM but if you think that sharing life with a man who tells you how you have to talk to him in a discussion while being incapable of showing you the same respect easy then think again.
I am not a monster. I am someone who has tried to love a man who despite his posts lacks important emotional skills with real people. All I receive critisism from him and from strangers.
QUNA
Of course it is, that's why it needs some patient love and understand from the other person. And compromise and graciousness.
ReplyDeleteIM, it's very tempting for human beings to look to other people (especially in a romantic relationship) to meet their emotional needs. But that often gets to be too much, because no-one can be all the other one needs at times. It's fine to want them to meet your needs, but not right to demand it. There is only one being who can meet all our needs always, but I won't go into that right now. ;o)
At the end of the day, it's dark.
No, sorry, I will try again ;o) - at the end of the day, you don't exist to meet Quna's needs, or even to make her feel better about herself, and vice versa. You are each responsible for yourselves, not the other.
The success of a relationship
is not determined by how similar or different you are but by how you both deal with your emotions, vulnerabilities and "dragons" when you argue. Pointing the finger at the other, rather than taking responsibility for yourself, is not the way to constructive progress being made.
Ain't no stoppin' me now!
Zeb.
That one of mine was in response to IM's last one not Quna's.
ReplyDeleteThis one is to Quna.
Just so that you get my side.
Depression is a bummer. Mine is an ongoing thing, because it has a physical cause (an illness I have) as well as being occasionally exacerbated by difficult circumstances (mine started with post-natal depression 18 years ago, then some childhood traumas surfaced, and then I got an auto-immune disorder! so depression hit me from 3 sides!). Even in the midst of depression there are things we can do that make it easier for others and keep the responsibility firmly on our own shoulders.For example, today I informed every member of my family that I was not feeling ok, that it would pass, that they weren't to worry about me or ask what was wrong, and to not take it seriously if I snapped or seemed unfriendly. Sometimes I consciously avoid close contact with people if I know that I am not in a good place for dealing with that kind of situation.
No-one can actually force you to talk about things if you don't want to - you always have the choice to walk away and say "let's do this another day". If you don't want to walk away, you can also say "Look you've done nothing wrong, but I just can't do this right now. I love you but I just need you to talk about something else/make me a coffee/hold me/whatever".
Relationships can be difficult at any time, but can be especially difficult if one or both has raging unresolved issues that need sorting. All of us humans have issues, but when they're major and not understood/resolved, it can make it hard to share your life with anyone.
I hope you two are able to come to a place where you are both able to find peace.
Zeb.
Am I the only person here who has no mental health issues whatsoever? It must be ALL of the rest of you buggers that's cracked, NOT me, (phew what a relief - I was getting quite down about that).
ReplyDeleteNow please excuse me while I go and water the cats...
By the way, that's ironic too...or is it just another sad downright lie?
Who cares?
hey cogi,
ReplyDeleteYou know what they say - 1 out of 4 people has mental health issues; so, think of 3 people you know, if none of them has mental health issues, then it's YOU! ;o)
Zeb.
Dunno which way to hope for now...
ReplyDeleteIf he and Q resolve their differences and live happily ever after, I'm sure we'll never hear another word...and god bless'em...
If, on the other hand, (and sadly most likely), they split up, we'll (eventually) hear all the ghastly details and an interesting blog will continue...
This reminds me of the the many poets who never write except when they're miserable...
Such is the nature of the eternally melancholic, cogi.
ReplyDeleteZeb.
gees pass me a freakin tissue, i've like never known you to "force" anyone to talk...haha...its unfair to keep someone hanging and manipulate them emotionally just because you can play the i've got a history card, like yeah i could do that but i would not ever as she will win any argument with that card every time. That will come up again for sure. You take responsibility for your feelings and are just describing an argument on your blog where as she is attacking you by saying you are lacking in freaking emotional skills, like she can talk!!!!
ReplyDeleteMr Fish, you know what my next sentense is gonna be.